Guest Post: 'Getting In & Knowing Stuff'

This could be you...

Hi all.

As part of the start of a new influx of AdGrads writers, below is an account about how to prepare for interviews by Jen Meyerson Dubbin. Take it away, Jen:

“They aren’t going to expect us to know stuff, right?”

by Jen Meyerson Dubbin

Your blood is pumping. You are hopefully not sweating through your suit. You nervously tap your foot against your leg while sitting on a modern chair that was clearly chosen for design instead of comfort. After having applied to every grad scheme and junior position under the sun, you have landed an interview.

You’re an ad grad who knows their stuff. Your lecturers and professors have prepared you. You brought your portfolio of your previous work to show, and yesterday you reviewed pertinent materials from your lectures to refresh yourself.

You start talking to and sizing up the competition whilst you all wait for a chance to break into Adland. There's someone with a BSc in Biology from Edinburgh, BA in Medieval History from Cambridge, BA in English from Sheffield, and then there's you; an ad grad. When the group finds out you are an ad grad the whole dynamic changes to you versus everyone else. The guy from Cambridge anxiously asks, “They aren’t going to expect us to know stuff, right?” While the girl from Edinburgh reassures him by saying, “They know we aren’t ad people.”

This should be obvious, but make sure you prepare for your interview. When I went on interviews, I was surprised at the number of people who didn’t seem to think they needed to do anything to prepare. Yes, ad agencies do expect you to know about advertising. You aren’t being hired as an account manager or planner for your ability to make a decent cuppa - especially in this economy. There is nothing wrong with never having taken an advertising course, but that’s not a valid excuse to not know about advertising. You wouldn’t expect a lorry driver not to know how to operate a vehicle. No-one expects you to know everything and it's okay to be wrong. However, it’s essential to have an opinion - make sure you're more knowledgeable than a general consumer. 

There are several things you can do to prepare for an advertising interview. It might take a bit of work to get there, but knowledge is empowering and a confidence booster too. Obviously, I can’t cover everything in this post - those who've gotten in, please feel free to post additional recommendations in the comment section.

Knowing how an advertising concept works and having knowledge of a little bit of history is essential; especially if there is a team task involved in the interview process. Sometimes you will be lucky by being informed before the interview the type of task you will be given. Use that information to focus your preparation - for instance, I was in a team where one of members was trying to explain to the team that the target market should be as broad as possible when it should actually be narrow and specific to be optimally targeted. He obviously didn’t do his prep work and it hurt the team. In these situations, you don’t want to be the weak link in your group.

What's more, you should try to find out what the person in the position you are applying for does. There are a lot of websites and blogs that should have the information available (Linkedin, for example). If you can’t find anything, note that some agencies do have quirky job titles, so be sure to ask in the interview. Use what you learned to sell yourself by connecting your skills and experience to the position - most things you've done can be related to advertising in some way - you've just got to know what the job entails.

When it comes to research, look at the agency you are applying to online. You can learn about their agency culture, clients, current & past work, people, and history. You can also find information in trade publications and websites such as (e.g., IPA, Brand Republic).

Learn about other agencies. Agencies are brands with communication products just like Coca-Cola is a brand with soft drink products. Other agencies are the competitors of the agency you are applying for. You don’t need to do SWOT analyses for each, but basics like what they offer, who their current & past clients are, current & past work, and agency culture should have you well covered. In the end, you should be able to talk about what differentiates Agency A from Agency B.

Finally, when I set off in advertising school I thought Planners & Account Managers went to college and Creatives went to portfolio school, but the ad world isn’t like that. There are no extra points for having a communications and business background. No specific mold of what makes an ad person exists. 

Advertising is incredibly diverse. Some people have degrees while others don’t. Those who do have degrees come from a variety of disciplines. Regardless of their discipline, ad people are willing to put in the work to stay current and knowledgeable because they genuinely like what they do.

Repost: 5 First Round Interview Tips...

Try to look less like an illustration than this guy. Via country_boy_shane. Usual rules apply.

Hi gang. I wouldn't usually repost bits and bobs, but as it is the season, I thought you should check out this old 'un on first round interviews:


We're right in the thick of advertising interview season. By now, first round acceptance emails and letters will be winging their way to those lucky few.

And it suddenly hits you; shit, this is all a bit real.

Well, as someone who's had more than a few grad interviews, I thought i'd share a few first round interview tips. Read on, Macduff:

1) It's likely to be pretty formulaic.

For all of the challenging questions you received in the grad application form, most of the real life interviews will follow a set routine. They sort of have to; you've still got hundreds of grads at this stage, and you need to have something straightforward to judge them on. How they usually go is to talk about you and your achievements/CV/answers in the first half, then talk about some ads (usually print), and what you think the message behind them is. There may be a few lateral thinking questions thrown in at the end (what product would you invent being a favourite), but many don't even do this. It depends on the mood of your interviewer/how engaged they are with you.

2) Good Cop, Bad Cop exists.

Now, normally, you'll be interviewed by a planner and an account handler. Sometimes these are in the same room, other times they are in separate rooms. Every now and then you might have two account handlers, or (rarely), a account handler and a HR person. Though the latter is fairly rare.

In the most conventional (planner/account man) situation, there will definitely be a good cop and bad cop. And, to be honest, usually the planner's the nice one, and the suit's the more tricky. (Of course, sometimes both are lovely). Why? Well, planners are interested in people who are lateral thinkers, and got into the job to find out about people. Don't be surprised if they just let you talk, then get excited, and you find yourself talking about something else entirely. Account handlers on the other hand - they want to make sure you can do the job, and will be looking for obvious reasons as to why and how you can do it. You're a raw material to both, but in the case of the latter, you're one they don't want to have to refine much.

3) You don't have to fill the silence.

I speak with real conviction on this point, because it's something I (still) struggle with. It's especially hard when speaking a lot and having a point of view about an intangible book or theory in University is positively encouraged. And, while there are rarely concrete 'right' answers in advertising, there are those which are nearer to right than wrong. You can easily go the other way if you talk too much. Feel free to ask questions too - let people talk, tell you what it's like to work at agency x or y. They won't mind.

If you find yourself talking, and wonder just what point you're making - it happens to all of us now and then - then shut up, or re-direct the conversation.

4) Know your ideas.

Most candidates won't know the difference between executional and campaign ideas. Most won't have a point of view which bears in mind why or how crap work comes to be made - a lot just like the ads on the telly. So know this stuff. Don't get me wrong, post-rationalising why an ad is a certain way isn't an exact science, but you should have an idea about just why an ad turned out a as it did.

Just don't do what I did, and slag off a very well known campaign, then get told 'you're not strategic'. Don't let your prejudices stop you getting through to the next round - christ, i'm a planner now, but just speaking my mind without thinking things through when I was a grad did for me. (You'll also end up working with those people whose ad you spoke about at some stage. It's sod's law).

5) Relax.

Frankie Goes to Hollywood had it right. Relax, don't open your mouth without thinking about what you've got to say. And, for God's sake, let your personality out. It's the only way you'll know for sure about whether (at this stage) you'll fit into an agency. Yes, it's just a first round interview, but if you can't be yourself/feel trapped, then the place probably isn't for you.

You'll just know this, I think. An interview situation is always artificial, and you may just not get on with your interviewer (Lord knows it happens - you're probably the 50th person who's made the same comment about the work). Despite this, you can usually tell whether you'd like working in a place - you can sometimes tell from the worried looks on the faces of the account execs hurrying around the agency.

Letting your personality has another advantage too - you may not think it, but I bet your interviewer is wondering what you'd be like to be stuck on a train with, or on a very boring conference call. Will you be someone who's interesting and interested, or will you be someone who bores the bejesus out of most people?

Best of luck to everyone going for their first rounders...

The Great Lottery...

A possibility.

Quite a few of you will already have had, or will be beginning to have, second round interviews. Congratulations are in order. You're past the first round stage, which is a massive achievement in itself.

And I thought it'd be a good idea to write some second round tips and tricks, whilst underlining the most important thing to take away from the whole experience.

The most important (and honest) thing to say is that it's all a bit of a lottery, really. If you've gotten this far, you'll be good enough to work in this business. You have the qualifications to prosper, you undoubtedly write well, and know what you're talking about. But the second round is ultimately like preparing for an exam. You prepare for ages, try to second guess what you'll be asked to do, but it comes down to on the day. You can think you've done incredibly well and still not get through.

Depressing? Perhaps, but it's not meant to be. You're in a situation which has many chaos elements, and i'll outline them. These points should hopefully help.

1) Other Candidates

You're surrounded by the sort of people who only have two things in common with you. Firstly, that they want a career in advertising (for the most part - some are dabbling), and secondly, that they impressed your interviewers well enough to be there. But they won't be the same as you. Oh no. Some will be loud. Some will be quiet. Many will have done vastly different degrees and have had very different experiences. I remember one of my second round interviews; one of the blokes there was a very promising acoustic guitarist, and preceded to sing a song half way through the day. Never found out if he got through.

But again, don't worry about it. What you can learn from the other candidates is a little about the sort of people the agency is looking for. Do you think everyone else in the room is a bit of a ball-breaker? Well, that might tell you a little bit about the agency's culture. Maybe they like the sort of people who'd sell their own grandmothers to make an ad. Or, are they all the sort of people who've taken up knitting at 22? Again, it'll help you learn what the agency wants. And this is useful when trying to understand whether you'd fit in - because, God knows, this is just as much about you as it is the place. There's nothing worse than forcing yourself to like a place and hating it from the outset.

2) The Tasks

Hopefully, this won't be like The Apprentice. But if it is, don't panic; again, it tells you something about the sort of place you might work at. I remember being asked at one agency to try and make something (out of selected materials) to stop an egg from smashing. Wacky, a bit mad, but interesting.

Now, this might seem very trivial, much like some of the more spurious and odd questions you were asked in round one. And it can piss some people off. I mean, who gives a flying fuck about keeping an egg alive? Well, there are two points to this. One is the crux of the matter - there's always a question behind this sort of thing. Why, in God's name, would you be asked about something like that? It's really to see how you react and how you think. It's a lateral thinking exercise; only in this instance, you're in a room full of people who're keeping an eye on you, and assessing your response and how you work with others.

Throwing your arms up in the arm and saying 'it's fucked', while possibly the correct response if this was an everyday situation, won't endear you to your team or the people having a look at you. That said, being entirely po-faced about the situation isn't realistic either. Having a chuckle and a laugh with the people who're in your team is the right sort of response. The second (but no less important) point is that you get asked all sorts of strange things in advertising. Things that make you wonder why you need a degree to have gotten onto the grad scheme, that your client is potentially nuts, and that bond you and your team together. That's just advertising, and the second round tasks are the start of realising that.

3) The Presentation

I'm not going to go as far as saying 'it's like a pitch', because you usually have something ressembling a series of facts to go from in a pitch. But, it is just as much a 'on the day' thing as a pitch. That really confident, brassy Brummie girl, who claimed to love presenting? Her freezing on the spot might happen, and often does. That quiet Swedish bloke? He'll come up with the goods when it looked like a stiff breeze might blow him over.

Don't rely, or expect the presentation to go as planned. Also, those people who 'win' the presentation don't always get jobs. It'll be a combination of how you work with your team, and what you've contributed to the whole day. There won't be one moment where you think you've suddenly cracked it. You never truly know. You can have an idea of just what the individual judges are after (based on their job role - the planner will be interested in the sort of insights you've come up with, the account handler will want to know how you promise to deliver it, and how it'll work moving forward), but there's always room for someone to charm the room with a captivating presentation.

4) Your Judges

Already alluded to in point three, the people popping in to see you are a funny bunch. You can't really second guess them. Is asking for help, or for their opinion a good thing? Do they expect you to be self-sufficient? (Well, in truth, nobody expects you to do it on your own, so don't be afraid to ask them what they think).

And that friendly planner who's been giving you advice all day? He may just turn into an absolute bastard when assessing your presentation, just to see how you react. And what of agency management, who (if my experiences are reliable) swan in towards the end of the day - not having been able to give up the whole day - and decide just who they like during the presentations? What's worse...they have the ability to overrule people who have spent the whole day with you. The best won't, mind.

How the whole bunch are with you will give you an insight into that mysterious thing, 'agency culture' too. No matter how friendly, shiny or spangly the website or rumour about them in Campaign might seem, this is where you begin to have an idea about them. Would you, in truth, like to work for them? Respect is key in this situation. Sure, you want a job in advertising; you don't want to work for a bunch of fuckwits who mistreat you and have egos the size of small planets. Don't go in with those kind of preconceptions. People are those who make agencies - they may once, for example, have been a great agency, but the people you meet on the day are those partially responsible for improving it and winning business. Do you trust them to help train you and make you better?

Some Final Words...

If rumour is to be believed, Sorrell, Bullmore and Steel (the owner, ex-JWT ECD/Chairman and WPP special consultant and the man who runs the WPP Fellowship) were all rejected by JWT on their graduate recruitment scheme. One now owns the entire network, the other was Chairman, the last is still called upon by JWT to help with pitches.

Personally, I was rejected by Lowe when I applied for a graduate job with them in 2005. I've just finished two happy years there. Being rejected from the graduate scheme doesn't mean you can never work in a place, or ever work in advertising. Sure, it's hard to take when you're used to achieving academically - but that's real life, i'm afraid. Keep trying, and you'll get in. Grad schemes aren't always the way in. Getting in is by far the hardest thing to do though.

If you're one of the lucky few who got through; congratulations. It'll be a helluva ride.

Five First Round Interview Tips...

Try to look less like an illustration than this guy. Via country_boy_shane. Usual rules apply.

We're right in the thick of advertising interview season. By now, first round acceptance emails and letters will be winging their way to those lucky few.

And it suddenly hits you; shit, this is all a bit real.

Well, as someone who's had more than a few grad interviews, I thought i'd share a few first round interview tips. Read on, Macduff:

1) It's likely to be pretty formulaic.

For all of the challenging questions you received in the grad application form, most of the real life interviews will follow a set routine. They sort of have to; you've still got hundreds of grads at this stage, and you need to have something straightforward to judge them on. How they usually go is to talk about you and your achievements/CV/answers in the first half, then talk about some ads (usually print), and what you think the message behind them is. There may be a few lateral thinking questions thrown in at the end (what product would you invent being a favourite), but many don't even do this. It depends on the mood of your interviewer/how engaged they are with you.

2) Good Cop, Bad Cop exists.

Now, normally, you'll be interviewed by a planner and an account handler. Sometimes these are in the same room, other times they are in separate rooms. Every now and then you might have two account handlers, or (rarely), a account handler and a HR person. Though the latter is fairly rare.

In the most conventional (planner/account man) situation, there will definitely be a good cop and bad cop. And, to be honest, usually the planner's the nice one, and the suit's the more tricky. (Of course, sometimes both are lovely). Why? Well, planners are interested in people who are lateral thinkers, and got into the job to find out about people. Don't be surprised if they just let you talk, then get excited, and you find yourself talking about something else entirely. Account handlers on the other hand - they want to make sure you can do the job, and will be looking for obvious reasons as to why and how you can do it. You're a raw material to both, but in the case of the latter, you're one they don't want to have to refine much.

3) You don't have to fill the silence.

I speak with real conviction on this point, because it's something I (still) struggle with. It's especially hard when speaking a lot and having a point of view about an intangible book or theory in University is positively encouraged. And, while there are rarely concrete 'right' answers in advertising, there are those which are nearer to right than wrong. You can easily go the other way if you talk too much. Feel free to ask questions too - let people talk, tell you what it's like to work at agency x or y. They won't mind.

If you find yourself talking, and wonder just what point you're making - it happens to all of us now and then - then shut up, or re-direct the conversation.

4) Know your ideas.

Most candidates won't know the difference between executional and campaign ideas. Most won't have a point of view which bears in mind why or how crap work comes to be made - a lot just like the ads on the telly. So know this stuff. Don't get me wrong, post-rationalising why an ad is a certain way isn't an exact science, but you should have an idea about just why an ad turned out a as it did.

Just don't do what I did, and slag off a very well known campaign, then get told 'you're not strategic'. Don't let your prejudices stop you getting through to the next round - christ, i'm a planner now, but just speaking my mind without thinking things through when I was a grad did for me. (You'll also end up working with those people whose ad you spoke about at some stage. It's sod's law).

5) Relax.

Frankie Goes to Hollywood had it right. Relax, don't open your mouth without thinking about what you've got to say. And, for God's sake, let your personality out. It's the only way you'll know for sure about whether (at this stage) you'll fit into an agency. Yes, it's just a first round interview, but if you can't be yourself/feel trapped, then the place probably isn't for you.

You'll just know this, I think. An interview situation is always artificial, and you may just not get on with your interviewer (Lord knows it happens - you're probably the 50th person who's made the same comment about the work). Despite this, you can usually tell whether you'd like working in a place - you can sometimes tell from the worried looks on the faces of the account execs hurrying around the agency.

Letting your personality has another advantage too - you may not think it, but I bet your interviewer is wondering what you'd be like to be stuck on a train with, or on a very boring conference call. Will you be someone who's interesting and interested, or will you be someone who bores the bejesus out of most people?

Best of luck to everyone going for their first rounders...

Junior Planning 101..

Books you should know about/have read. Picture via Russell. Usual rules apply.

Inspired by Adland Suit's two posts for Junior Account handlers (as well as some advice for finding your way), I thought I should write a little missive for grad planners, or planners who've only just started. (Yes, the APSOTW is also bloody useful for this, so go read that too).

I'll preface this all by saying i'm really, still, a baby planner myself (just over 2 years of being a planner), so i'm still learning some of these - and feel free to chip in if there's something i've missed/can add to another post.

Anyway, on with the post.

1) You're bright; you aren't useful yet. A lot of planners will be incredibly bright chaps and chappesses who like the thinking behind brands and much more - how the mind works, the social impact of the decline of the Norwegian leather industry in 1980, anime and so on - but that's not immediately useful. All that said; you're still basically an interested student. You don't really have knowledge of client relationships, of business or even of how to talk to different 'types' of creative. So don't waltz in and expect to have it handed to you - it's extremely unlikely you'll have creatives coming up to you and listening to you from the off. You may have a first from your University and have been academic hot shit; that doesn't mean anything in the real world.

2) Data's one of your weapons. No-one else in the agency will know the penetration of yellow fats in lower income households. You must suck up this sort of data - it's vital business information, and it means, effectively, you can participate in conversations with the client, with creatives, and with account management. Without it, you've got the square root of fuck all - senior planners can go with their gut because they've done it before. You can't.

3) Smugness will not be tolerated. You are a planner, and that means you have to get on with people. By all means be a grumpy fucker now and then (sometimes it's a useful tactic when trying to get your thinking heard), but if you are perceived as smug, you've entirely destroyed your value. Think about it. If you're smug (though the agency and client may believe you know what you're talking about) you won't be perceived as empathetic, and it's a killer. Planners have to understand their audience; they can never truly 'know' what punters are going to do next. You can have a damned good understanding, but if you get into a routine where you think you know the audience better than themselves, you're kidding everyone, and the work and your relationships will reflect that. You're in a privileged position, being paid to think - don't abuse it.

4) Don't be too quiet. It's oh so easy to retreat into an ivory tower of thinking, just because that's what you used to do when writing about Milton's England or convalent bonding. This is advertising; it is not a place for the timid. You're being employed for your opinions, so speak up. Also, you're (again) in a damn privileged position to be able to talk to more senior suits and clients than your junior account handler counterpart; so you have to be able to bring your thoughts to the table. Obviously, don't be too loud and opinionated, as everyone will hate you - but for God's sake, don't be the bright quiet (and ultimately useless) one.

5) Work on your ability to think laterally. By this, I don't mean reading and regurgitating planning books (though reading several of them is a good idea). I refer instead to reading, as my old boss says, 'weird shit'. Read/watch stuff which opens your mind. You'll never know when that quote from Howard's End can be used to help reposition your automotive brief, or what a tea brand can learn from Grandaddy. Spouting things about a 'purpose idea' or a 'lighthouse identity' is old news. You should know it, but don't be over reliant on it. Lots of baby planners talk about the same old shit. How's that going to create interesting communication, or good propositions?

6) Job title is unimportant. I was told by Charles and Richard a while ago, that there's no such thing as a junior planner. You either are one or you're not. Took me a while to realise, but I think it relates to point 4 - senior and junior planners alike are paid for their informed opinions. This also relates to whatever prefix comes before 'planner'. Digital, comms, integrated, account - planners should be able to think in every discipline. After all, it's ideas and strategies you are dealing with - would that TV spot be able to work in digital? Why not? Could it be shared? Again, don't become a discipline snob, or assume that because you've specialised, you know best. Absolute nonsense, that.

7) Account management are your friends. These guys go through hell and back to keep the show on the road, so you should show them the utmost respect. All you do is think. Who's got the easier job? Don't be surprised if your account team don't know x or y about a brand or market - often, they are problem solvers, and often don't have time to stop and consider certain issues like you do. They aren't stupid, or 'unstrategic'. Just because you're the planner on the business doesn't mean you automatically know best. Account handlers are just as bright as you - but focused on other areas. Also, whilst your job is increase knowledge on the account now and then you'll find yourself doing some basic account handling. It may not be what you signed up for, but maintaining the client relationship is paramount, and if you are sometimes involved in writing a cheeky contact report or leading the relationship on one project, it should accepted without a grumble.

8) More Powerpoint doesn't mean better thinking. If account handlers have contact reports as their personal hell, then for planners, it's got to be the endless competitive reviews, especially when you're starting out. You'll note that some clients seem to think the longer the presentation, the better it is. Well, let me tell you that no-one learned anything from the 150+ slide presentation which was presented last time. Far far better to keep it to 30 slides of well thought out thinking than bombarding with endless ads and miscellaneous thinking. Plus, as Jon Steel put it in the Perfect Pitch, no-one speaks like Powerpoint; so why present most thinking on it? Far better, more often than not, to chat to your client about things.

9) Information is fine, but filtration is best. You've been employed because they think you can deal with all different types of data - from quotes to sales statistics. What you need to do is synthesise the data into something your client and all the agency folk you deal with can understand. This is a large, large part of your role, and one where it pays to talk to senior planners about what they'd ignore and what they'd use. It's all too easy to get bogged down in data; the crappest planners offer too much in the hope they're doing the right thing.

10) Find a mentor. As mentioned in other points, you don't know jack at this stage. But, assuming you know what you don't know, you should realise planning is a bit of a beast to try and learn all by yourself. Perhaps you have been lucky enough to find someone at your new/current agency who can show you the ropes and advise you (because, God knows - whether junior or senior, all planners need advice now and then). Or perhaps you haven't. If you haven't, go and find one! Read planning blogs (like Northern Planner's excellent series of planning tips) and exchange emails - go to APG events, meet other planners. The APG's introduction to planning is terrific to teach, and to help you meet your peers. You'll find people who inspire you, and people who can mentor you; they'll go on helping you throughout your career.

Phew. There are a few tips for you guys. Any other folk who have other suggestions, stick 'em in the comments.